TITLE: 

The “Truth About Opie Lindsay” is just a title chosen to give focus to a discussion about the descendants of Rev. David Lindsay b. 1603 and the descendants of Robert Lindsay b. 1641.

PURPOSE:

A discussion is needed to solve the mysterious reason members of DNA Group 12 and members of DNA Group 1 both claim descendants of Opie Lindsay.  The DNA data demands that this cannot be true!

WHO SHOULD CARE:

Numerous of us in Group 1 are “dead enders”!  That is, our MRCA reaches back to the frontier days of the USA and no further.  Unless we find some “old country” ties, perhaps we shall never realize our search.  I hypothesize that it may some how be easier to trace our people in Europe back to the USA rather than spend endless days, searching endless records, collecting endless facts of  “possibilities”!

OUR EUROPEAN COUSINS:

Our cousins with know ties to Europe will have to help us.  We know very little about the history, geography, or anything else European!  But our roots are in Ireland, Scotland, and England and we canna help it!  It is they whose feet are planted firmly on our ancestor’s soil who must lead us!

WHAT TO DO:

Read what is said here with a view towards adding information, critique, opposing arguments; anything to provide insight to our mutual search.  Lets decide what is fact and hypnotize what could be possible!

A WORD ABOUT GROUP 12

This has nothing to do with “dispossessing” Group 12 of their inheritance!  If we can document their people then we have found our people (or lost them perhaps)!  I dunna care!

THE FACTS AS I SEE IT

L0001

L0001 is our DNA leader!  That is, he is our standard and we are consequently sorted accordingly.  He has significant ties to John Lindesay b. 1686 and hopefully leads to Thomas of Kingswark through Robert Lindesay dd. 1618.  L0075, L0110, L0025 & L0007 seem to be closely related.  (If there are more please correct.)  His people seem to have moved from Scotland to Ireland after 1604 and bef. 1618.  His ancestors:

             Thomas Lindsay of Kingswark

            Robert Lindesay of LOUGHRY (brother of Bernard of LOCHHILL)

            bp. Leith, Scotland dd. abt. Feb. 1618, Loughry, County Tyrone, Ireland

Capt. Robert Lindesay of Loughry b. 1604. Leith, Scotland dd. 18 May, 1674 (Thus we derive the approximate date of Robert’s move to Ireland)

            Robert dd. 1691

                        John bd. 1686

L0026 & L0085

Group 1 Members and known descendants of Robert Lindsay b. ca 1740, resident of Guilford County, No. Carolina.  Their ancestry could be as follows: 

            Thomas Lindsay of Kingswark

Bernard Lindsay of LOCHHILL dd. Dec. 1626 London, England (brother of Robert of LOUGHRY)

Lt. Col. Bernard Lindsay of LOCHHILL chd. 14 June, 1603 & Rachel Lindsay (daughter of Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland & Agnes Lindsay of the Mount)

            Robert b. 1641

                        Opie dd. 1727

John  (..supposed brother of Robert )

                                                Robert b. ca 1740

http://www.clanlindsay.com/scotch-irish_lindsay_lineage_dna_grouping.htm

Group 12  Through Bernard Lindsay  (Jo White Linn/Donald Whyte: “The Gray Family and Associated Lines”)

            Thomas Lindsay of Kingswark

Bernard Lindsay of LOCHHILL dd. Dec. 1626 London, England (brother of Robert of LOUGHRY)

Lt. Col. Bernard Lindsay of LOCHHILL chd. 14 June, 1603 & Rachel Lindsay (daughter of Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland & Agnes Lindsay of the Mount)

Robert b. 1641

                        Opie dd. 1727

                                    Robert dd. 1784  (..supposed brother of John)

                                                                        Opie

                                                                                    Robert b. 1774

 Group 12  Through Rev. David Lindsay  (Margaret Isabella Lindsay: “Lindsay’s of America”)

Walter Lindsay the Younger of Edzell d. 1513

  Alexander Lindsay of Edzell

    David Lindsay Bishop of Ross d. 1613

      Sir Jerome Lindsay of Annatland & first wife Margaret Colville

Rev. David Lindsay chr. 1603 South Leith, Scotland

Robert b. 1641

                        Opie dd. 1727

                                    Robert dd. 1784  (..supposed brother of John)

                                                            Opie

                                                                                    Robert b. 1774

http://www.clanlindsay.com/dna_group_12.htm 

Some Observations:

        1)     Group 12 could be either the descendant of Rev. David and/or Robert b. 1641

2)     If they descend from Sir Jerome through Rev. David their DNA would be different from Group 1.  (And it is!)

3)    Their DNA is different and the reason would be that Group 1 descends through Lt. Col. Bernard and Rachel and the line of Thomas of Kingswark.

4)     Group 1 L0001 is a strong candidate to be from the line of Thomas of Kingswark.  Several members DNA are closely related to L0001.

5)    This should reinforce the evidence that L0006 & L0085 of the Guilford CO., No. Carolina Lindsay’s are properly associated to L0001 making their proposed ancestry most creditable.

6)     Robert dd. 1784 and his brother John did not pass on the same DNA concluding that a) they are not brothers and one is not the son of Opie Lindsay. b) Opie Lindsay is not the son of Robert b. 1641 c) & Robert b. 1641 is not the son of Bernard/Rachel. 

7)    The DNA suggests that the line from Bernard/Rachel to Robert b. ca 1740 seems intact, supported by the association/DNA of Chris Lindesay.

I offer the following documentation as presented by Margaret Isabella Lindsay (MIL) and Jo White Linn/Donald Whyte (JLDW):

 P36 MIL

 

MIL says “It is true, they misapplied the name of our first ancestor, calling him Robert instead of David”

MIL father “deduced” that they were descendants from Sir Jerome even though some of her people called their ancestor Robert! 

This Robert would/should be Robert b. 1641. 

According to JLDW, Rev. David 1603-1667 died leaving a definitive will, giving his possessions to his “loving daughter Helen Lyndsay”:

 P321 JLDW

  JLDW…Second wife of Rev. David “had no issue”  P320

 

 P38 MIL makes this statement:

The “old court item” refers to a Robert who testified for the wife of Rev. David (Susanna (Opie?)) having been accused of some sort of misconduct.  Robert was 24 at the time.  What is important here is the statement:  “doubtless” and “Tradition gives little or nothing respecting him…”.  She also concludes Robert must be dead because he’s “not in his fathers will”! 

So MIL decides that Robert b. 1641 is the son of Rev. David, son of Sir Jerome!  That the reason Robert b. 1641 is not mentioned in the will is that he must have died “as the result of some accident”! 

As to the matter of Robert b. 1641 having a male heir and consequently receiving his LEGAL share of the inheritance with Helen she has this to offer: 

P39 MIL:

 “and something must have been bequeathed to his son by law of inheritance” but she first said the son “died as the result of some accident”! 

Did she mean grandson instead of son? 

This is a supposition denied by the legal document which defined daughter Helen as his sole heir! (#18, ibid. #19, Linn)  It supposes that Robert b. 1641 is alive…also contradictory! 

 Page 40 MIL:

 “bequeath my whole estate to my loving daughter Helen”

The legal grandson of Rev. David; the son of Helen’s husband Thomas Opie…born after Rev. David’s death:

 P41 MIL:

 P41 MIL

 Thomas Opie’s brother-in-law, Robert Lindsay…mentioned in will of 1701:

 P323JLDW

“and to his brother-in-law Robert Lindsay” 

Today a brother-in-law would be 1) a brother of Helen or 2) the husband of a sister of Helen.  I know of no such persons!  3) a sister of Thomas Opie whose husband is Robert Lindsay.  (See Carney @ XX)


P325  How Jo White Linn thought Robert Lindsay (b. 1641?) became designated “son-in-law”:

 But if Robert b. 1641 was married to a sister of Thomas Opie, he could be a “legitimate” brother-in-law!

 Now if Robert Lindsay b. 1641 is deceased before 1667 (MIL), why is he named in a will written in 1701?

a)                  Either this the husband of Thomas Opie’s sister (XX p 12), Robert Lindsay (Susanna Opie?) or

b)                  A living Robert Lindsay who may be the Robert Lindsay b. 1641 and

c)                  MIL was in error!     

 Another Robert Lindsay considered: 

There is probably another Robert Lindsay d. 1675, son of Sir Jerome/Margaret Colville.  To make him the grandson of Sir Jerome, however, there would perhaps need to be added a missing generation…a son of Robert d. 1675 who had a son Robert b. 1641.

  

                                                                                                                        JLDW P 327

Ron Lindsay speaks to this issue (avoiding a missing generation) as he discusses the possibility of Robert b. 1641 being the son of Robert d. 1675. 

In conclusion, the person we have lost track of in this analysis, and in fact know very little about, is Rev. David Lindsay's brother, Robert (? - 1675) ... see graphic below.  Is it possible that Robert Lindsay (ca 1641 - after 1671, and possibly married to Susanna Opie) of Northumberland County, VA was the son of Robert (? - 1675), and thus nephew of Rev. David Lindsay?  Rev. David Lindsay's brother, Robert (? - 1675) was still alive eight years after the death of Rev. David Lindsay (1603-1667).

There is another Susanna Opie.

A reported Susanna Opie (second cousin) who married Robert d. 1784 in 1740, daughter of Capt. John Opie, but CARNEY (XX) makes this notation:

There is no dispute that Robert Lindsay's (dd. 1784..my note) wife was named Susanna (Susan),and they married prior to 1744 when she was witness to a deed in Fairfax.  She was still married to him when he died in Fairfax in 1784, and she was still living at The Mount in 1791, and several years thereafter. She could have been an Opie, but not the daughter of Captain John Opie. This is a different Susanna b 1719 d. 1749 who m. Col Rodham Kenner. and 2nd Travers Colston.768

P332 JLDW:

This is a possibility but it requires some “gymnastics” (re: Robert dd. 1675) to make such a thought evident!  The net effect would be to absolutely sever the Group 1 members from Thomas of Kingswark via the “House of Opie”, demanding they seek another avenue for their ancestry.  But it would clear up the DNA contradiction leaving the “House of Opie Lindsay” the need to find another (a missing generation, not Robert Lindsay b. 1641) ancestor also! 

And who is Opie Lindsay?

P326-327 JLDW:

This is the documentation for Opie Lindsay by JLDW:

 “Robert Lindsay died, leaving a son Opie Lindsay (67)” 

Notice the footnote # 67 pp. 42-46; p.54, is by Margaret I. Lindsay!

Here is MIL’s documentation, page 44:

That’s it! 

This is Opie Lindsay married to Joyce Austin, father of Robert, Thomas, and John. 

 YY J. Bass           Joyce Austin note:

 His father Opie Lindsay, Esq. died in 1727 (Son of Robert, the immigrant)and his estate was administered in Northumberland County by John Smith. (Inventory of the movable estate 20 Sep 1727769) His widow Joyce Lindsay married Thomas Ashton (1695-1734), son of Thomas Ashton who died about 1690 and was a brother of Charles Ashton who had been involved in 1665 in a court case with the Rev David Lindsay which was described as a "very scandalous affair." By his will Ashton devised to his "stepson, Robert Lindsay" a life estate in certain lands on Cherry Point. Joyce Lindsay Ashton married 3rd William Taylor who had been executor of her husband's will.

Here is Donald Whyte’s documentation of Opie Lindsay in an explanation as to Capt. Geo. F. Lindsay’s pedigree:

Note Whyte’s reference #38 by Adelaide L. Fries….we need this document…I canna find it anywhere!

Another Researcher has this to say about Opie Lindsay, concluding that he is the son of Robert Lindsay, husband of a sister of Thomas Opie: 

XX From: Elizabeth Carney <>
Subject: Lindsay-Northumberland County
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 22:06:58 –0800
 

This is from Genealogies of Virginia Families, from William & Mary
College Quarterly Magazine, Vol. III, pp. 431-2:


Lindsay-Opie. The question of the authenticity of two tombstones over the grave of Rev. David Lindsay in Northumberland County, Va., was fully settled by the discovery in England of the will of Thomas Opie, Jr., published in the Virginia Magazine, XVII., 90. The will of Thomas Opie, Sr., mariner of Bristol, has since been discovered, and is now published in this magazine from the report of the "Lindsay Association of America," 1911. In this will Thomas Opie, Sr., calls Robert Lindsay "brother-in-law." Now it is almost certain that the reference here is to Robert Lindsay, who states his age in a deposition in Northumberland, in 1664, as 24 years. "Brother-in-law" may be taken to mean that he was a brother of Thomas Opie's wife, or that he married Thomas Opie's sister. Which was it? Against the hypothesis that Robert Lindsay was brother of Thomas Opie's wife Ellen [Helen in above quote], daughter of Rev. David Lindsay, is the fact that Rev. Mr. Lindsay left "his whole estate" to his daughter Ellen and entirely ignored Robert Lindsay. Now, it is true, that it was not an uncommon thing to omit in a will a child who had been previously provided for, and this omission by itself as against the identity of name and the words of the will is not sufficient to disprove the hypothesis stated. But there is another fact. It seems that Robert Lindsay's son was Opie Lindsay, and Ellen Opie's son was Lindsay Opie. In view of the custom prevalent even today, of naming one of the sons after the mother's family, this information inclines the evidence to the latter hypothesis, and it appears that Robert Lindsay, while a relative of Rev. Mr. Lindsay, was brother-in-law of Thomas Opie, through a marriage with Thomas Opie's sister.

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/LINDSAY/1997-12/0881302018

 I ask:

1)      How has Opie Lindsay been documented as the son of Robert b. 1641?

2)      Or the son of Rev. David?

3)      Or the son of anybody?  (The connection comes from the fact that Robert b. 1641 named his son Opie!)

4)      If Opie Lindsay is unidentified, then what about Robert dd. 1784; Thomas; and John?

The documentation of Opie’s three sons at the end of the list of assets in the estate settlement by JLDW:

“Opie Lindsay had three sons” 

As near as I can determine, that’s all there is! 

Now we can be assured that:

        1)     There was an Opie Lindsay.

2)     Opie left an appraised estate but no named heirs.

3)     Opie was attributed one son Robert dd. 1784 leading to Robert b. 1774 & consequently leading to the Group 12 members.

4)     Opie is attributed two other sons, Thomas & John.  John leading to the Group 1 USA members.

 As to Robert dd. 1784, MIL P46 has this documentation:

 

 JLDW P332 writes this:

 

……and from here the sons of Robert are adequately documented leading to Robert b. 1774 and the Group 12 folks.

YY From: Josephine Lindsay Bass <>
Robert's Will dated 11 sep 1784 proved 16 Nov 1784 naming his wife Susan and children: William, Opie, Mary Ann and Thomas.
Execs: Opie and Thomas Lindsay. 769

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/LINDSAY/1998-09/0905560806

JLDW P333 (son Opie of Robert dd. 1784.)

As for Thomas, brother of Robert dd. 1784:

 P334

 and John, brother of Robert dd. 1784, JLDW offers this information:

 P334

 So what do we conclude?

 a)      Robert b. 1641 is the son Rev. David? 

a.   If this is true, why does Rev. David’s will bequeathed Helen his entire estate, ignoring a legal sons             (Robert b. 1641) child Opie his proper inheritance?  If there were no “nefarious” activities, this could not be done, or I suppose, he received his inheritance earlier!  Rev. David’s and his USA wife Susanna left no heirs.

b.   This does provide an answer as to the DNA differences between Group 12 and Group 1.

 b)      Robert b. 1641 is the son of Bernard/Rachel? 

a.    This preserves the DNA chain to the Group 1 grandsons of Guilford CO., NC.

b.      If Robert b. 1641 is simply in the care of Rev. David as Donald Whyte proposes, this clarifies the legal heir of Rev. David (Helen).

P330

c.       It preserves undocumented John, son of Opie, as ancestor of the Guilford CO., NC Group 1 boys.

d.      It gives undocumented Opie Lindsay DNA credentials as son of Robert b. 1641.

Then what about Robert (6) dd. 1784 ancestor of the Group 12 members?

                1)      Opie (5) apparently had a son Robert (6), brother of Thomas (6) and Group 1 John(6) .

2)      Robert (6), son of Opie (5) is the apparent ancestor of the Group 12 members

3)      Robert’s (6) grandson (Robert (8)) wrote a statement in his bible, as we shall discuss below.

 Ron Lindsay in personal correspondence discuss the Group 12 documentation:

 As for the family bible associate with DNA Group 12 ....

Keep in mind that the bible pages provided (which I have a photocopy) by DNA Group 12 participant, L0084, came as an inherited family heirloom, with a publication date of 1836 on the first page of The New Testament.  This bible was obviously purchased one year prior to the death, in 1837, of Robert Lindsay.  Robert Lindsay
(8) was b. June 4, 1770 or 1774, d. 1837 in Rockingham County, Madison, North Carolina, married Elizabeth Wren on June 28, 1798 in Fairfax County, Virginia.  In the family bible, at the end of the Apocrypha page is a blank one-half page that was used for an inscription, signed by Robt Lindsay, stating the following (the underlining was inserted my me).

"As my children my be desirous to know where we originated  It was from Scotland our progenitor settled at Cherry Point Wesmoreland County Va as a church parson under the old Establishment from which we descended
(a bit illegible but could also be the word "described") as The xxxxx (illegible but appears to be the word "contract"), by my father Opie (7) Lindsay.  My mother descended from the Lamkin and the Chatten Family of Westmoreland County, VA.   Robt Lindsay"

The Group 12 posting by Ron Lindsay has this information:

 Participant L0084 has in his possession, the family bible (publication date of 1836) that was presented to his great-great grandfather John Mott Lindsay (1809-1901) by John Mott Lindsay's father, Robert Lindsay (1774-1837), the ggg grandfather of participant L0084.  The Lindsay Surname DNA Project Coordinator has been provided with a photocopy of the "family pages" from this bible.  In the front of this bible is a handwritten message stating ... "This bible is presented to John M. Lindsay by his father Robert Lindsay and to his oldest son if he thinks proper."  In a space at the end of the Apocrypha of this bible was found the following handwritten message from Robert Lindsay.  "As my children may be xxx ( believed to be the word curious) to know where my origin.  It was from Scotland our progenitor settled at Cherry Point - Westmoreland County Va as a church parson under the old Establishment from which we descended as the  xxxxx (word that cannot be deciphered) by my father Opie Lindsay.  My mother descended from the Lamkin and Chatten Family of Westmoreland County, Va.   Robt Lindsay"

 Further Ron Lindsay makes this remark:

 “The family bible most assuredly establishes the Lindsay ancestry for participant L0084 as it is shown below in the graphic.”

So the thread that binds Group 12 to Robert b. is a bible notation stating that he (Robert (8) b. 1774 dd. 1837) is the descendant of  “our progenitor settled in Cherry Point” // “as a church parson”, who he believes (and/or apparently was told) is the Rev. David, father of Helen, grandfather of John Opie.  (1836-1667= 169 yrs.)   

Who do I think Opie Lindsay is?  The son of Robert b. 1641, son of Bernard Lindsay and Rachel Lindsay!  Or….. John Lindsay (supposed brother of Robert dd. 1784) is not of this family and has other ancestry directly linked to Bernard/Rachel Lindsay.